IF over built is important and I can respect that, stay away from a LD 1500 GM truck because one thing it is not is over built. I suggest you look at either a 1500HD or a 2500 if you go GM route because not only do you get stronger drive axle front and rear with bigger brakes and a stronger chassis but you get a much stronger tranny as well.

yeah but the unless i get something used, any new HD i get will have that new 6 speed auto that you're not fond of. i just finished reading my monthly motor trend and in it, they have an article about the their test drive of the Silverado 1500. they seem pretty impressed. their saying that the max trailering package will come with a heavy duty 9.5 rear axle and the 4L70-E trans. I assume thats a new type of trans based on the ones they already have cause ive never heard of a 4L70 before, unless its a typo. and what does the 70 in 4L70 stand for anyway? or the 60 or 80 in 4L60 and 4L80?

The 4L70 would be a beefed up 4L60/65 (you sure they do not mean a 6L70?)  I the tranny ID like say a 4L65, the 4 stands for number of gears, the L stands for longitudinal mounting (rear wheel drive) and the 65 is short for 650 metric newtons (a measure of torque capacity , 650 is rated at about 360 FT lbs) When the Alision first came out is was Alison 1000 (1000 Metric Newtons or about 600 Ft lbs rating) and now it is a 1100 series. The 4L80 is rated at about 465 ft lbs of input torque. (a foot note, the 4L80/85 is a serious tranny and based on old THM400 design and is conservatively rated) There is also a 4L90 that is a 4L80 beefed up a little that is used in motor homes and such and in the Dmax powered van (Ally would not fit and I drove one the other day and I actually like it better behind Dmax than ally because it is a much smoother shifter up shifting and down shifting). 6 speeds can look good on paper but it can result in a tranny that hunts around gears a lot at times and the more complex it is the more to go wrong with it. I would not want to own a 6 speed until it had been out for several years because it will have teething problem without doubt. It took 6 years to get the bugs out of a 700R4 (81 to 87) and it was solid after that and then it morphed into the 4L60 (which is a nothing but a 700R4 with a electronically controlled valve body starting around 92) and they had issues with that upgraded design for several years too and now it is pretty solid. One more tip, take some of those tow ratings with a grain of salt because Detriot has been in a race to compete with each other on increased tow ratings for sales (especailly on 1/2 models) and there is no federal standards for these rating so Detriot can pad them as they wish. Take about 30% of them for starters and more still if you tow in hills a lot or at high elevation or high tempatures.  Example, a 2006 1500 with a light weigh 10 bolt axle, 2 rear leafs and a booster and a 5.3 with a 4L60 and 3.73 is rated to tow as much or more as my 2000 K3500 SRW is and it has a proven 5.7 Vortec (that has a lot more low speed torque than a 5.3), a bullet proof 4L80 tranny, a 8000lb capacity rear axle, 10 ply tires, massive brakes front a rear, a much stronger frame and 5 rear leafs with a booster. Which one do you think would be safer with a 8 or 10 K trailer??? BTW, I have towed close to 14K with mine a few times which no control issues even at up to 70 MPH at imes with plenty of reserve still and no WD hitch either and loaded car heavy haulers many times (8 to 9K) with no problems at all and it never even breaks a sweat and never goes below drive either on hills. I would not even think twice about towing 8 or 10K with it 1000 miles if need be but I would not want to with a over rated 1/2 truck. Time to get off of soap box.

yeah the article says 4L70-E. the 6 speeds arernt available till next year unless i get a GMC 1500 in Denali trim. i can see what ur saying about new products, just the other day i was reading about a recall on the new Toyota Camarys because of a trans problem. So since your saying i should be cautious of the tow numbers for a new GM 1500, shouldnt i also be cautious of the totally 100% new Toyota Tundra? they have similar numbers for their truck, but unlike the GM's who's engines have been around for a while, and like you say the trannies that have been around for a while and upgraded, i would think i should be extra cautious of a new truck whos top engine and transmission didnt exist only 24 months ago, let alone has ever been tested in the real world. would it also be wise to subtract a portion of real world towing capacity from their ratings claims?  

If you take a new Detriot 1/2 ton truck and tow its "rated" load you will have poor performance and spend a lot of time downshifting on hills to second gear becaue of inflated rating. I come from the old school and I do not view use second gear on highway hills as SOP. If vechicle is properly geared (axle ratio) for its engine and rated load, you will not need to downshift to second. They need to stop the tow rating wars or regear vehicles better and increase chassis and spring strength too.

There is no way to compare at Toyota to a Detriot truck because Toyota takes a LOT more care with their designs and serious driveline mechanical problems are very rare with them overall. Toyota pays a lot less for labor (no UAW but still pays a good wage) so they can spend more man hours per vehicle  for quality control and proper design. Toyota did not become the giant they did by building low quality cars. (THey are now the number 2 auto seller in US). I have about had my fill of Detriot trucks these days because they have forgotten what a truck should be and when Toyota enters the HD truck market Detrit is going to either have to get their act together or close their doors. Toyota is not really stealling the market, Detroit is giving it to them because consumers and getting tired of the status quo from Detriot.

Yeah i suppose you could make that argument for cars, but those new GM's are lookin pretty good. the frames are stiffer, fully boxed, and hydroformed, the interiors are almost lexus grade, and they have proven engines, and trans. I completely understand where ur comming from though, i expect only the best, and if you look at the research GM is doing and the amount of resources and knowledge they have at their fingertips and some of the stuff they build over seas, its hard not to be dissapointed sometimes at the stuff they sell here. and although toyota has grown a reputation for building reliable cars, they have yet to prove to me that they can build a decent truck. My friend just bought a brand new 2006 toyota tacoma, and i have to say, i was less than impressed. sure it had everything it was supposed to, but it was underpowered even with the largest engine available, and feels like it was made for the street, where as my other friend who has a 2002 Chevy silverado had power to spare and felt solid as a rock even with a lift. and i know they arent meant to compete directly against eachother, but the Silverado just felt more capable.

Now maybe the new tundra will be great but i just cant say its better than a GM truck. All my older relatives and family have had their GM and Ford trucks forever and are still going strong so i have to believe that although they dont build em like they used, to this point they have a better reputation. in the end i suppose all i can do is test drive them all and decide which one feels right. hopefully GM has gotten the message that demanding truck buyers wont just buy a GM truck just because it has an "American" badge.

oh yeah one more thing, u were right about a transmission having too many useless gears. i was reading the road tests of the new Lexus LS 460 with 8 gears and and the new mercedes S class with 7 gears, and the test drivers reported that the cars were constantly up shifting and down shifting, trying to find the optimum gear. as u said, it seems companies only do this as a marketing ploy, and has little or no benefit in the real world.  

Over 70% of the cost of building a GM truck is labor costs, the other 30% is materails (that tells you how much they have to cut corners). In 2005, health benifits alone added about 1500 dollars to the price of a GM vehicle. (common reported knowledge) GM pushes SUV's because on higher profit margins. Currently their labor cost them about 70 bucks a hour in wages and benifits (days off and insurance and such)so they keep striving to make trucks cheaper and cheaper material wise to balance books. There is 2 main reasons that they are going to push 6 speed auto, one is the marketing hype of it for sales and the other is it is the first GM tranny designed to be assembled by robots and requires only about 2 man hours of labor per unit verse about 6.5 hours for 4l60/65/70 ( or about 315 dollars less total labor costs per tranny) so it costs them less to build and they can sell it for more because of more gears.  On the frames, I knew a guy that used to haul trucks to dealers and when GM came out with the new truck in 88, they were bending the frames on them securing them to trailer for delievery on 1/2 ton trucks because the frame was a lot weaker (until 88, 1/2 and 3/4 ton trucks shared same sturdy frame). They had to change the way they tied them down for shipment. Then Silverados in 99 still had a lighter redesingned frame than 3/4 tons did and now for 2007, they have lighted the frame up again as it has even less metal in rear than before. They claim extra stiffness but this is misleading because all they have done is boxed the frame in rear of truck and use less metal to get same general strength and more stiffness because it is boxed but the draw back here is a few fold. First when a box frame is driven to yield it fails more agressively and does not flex nor is forgiving like a normal C channel frame is. (also, flex in a frame in a big trcuk is not a bad thing) Next with frame full boxed it can rust on both side and rust in side is unseen and cannot been monitored because it is hidden  and since there is less total metal it will withstand less rust before it fails. GM is also going to a coil over front suspension (I have pictures that I have not posted yet) that combines shock and spring into one unit and means that not only will replacing shocks be a pain now, they will be very expensive to do too. (this allow for a lighter frame because it no longer has to withstand the twisting counter forces of Torsion bars) You do also know that GM quietly moved the fuel filter from being inline user servicable item to being in the fuel tank a few years ago so that it is not user servicable (I would love to hear the logic on that move, I am sure it was cost related) What I am trying to say is look beyond the pretty face and beyond the hype and see what they are really doing as it becomes less truck and more car with each new model.

yeah i know about the flexing, and the fuel filter. big rigs have C frames because of the massive torque their engines create, if you've ever seen one start of the line, u see the whole rear end twist, its really quite amazing. i guess my question would be, why would toyota be able to avoid these problems? why wouldnt they have the same exact potential problems? their frames are boxed, (hiding rust) they use coil over shock set ups, (i'm sure just as expensive) and they will be offering a 6 speed trans with the new tundra. i know they have a good reputation, but how do i really know their frames are made out of stronger stuff, how do i know they wont have the same rust problems down the line. and how do i know their new trans isnt that much different than the new GM one?

I guess my point is that toyota can only do so much because at some point physics would limit how good a truck with comparable size and ability could be. for example, lets say they wanna use more and stonger steel in their frame, trans, and other parts. well that would make the truck obviously weigh more, thus providing less fuel milage and hampering its engine power. to stay competative, they would have to limit the weight of the steel and parts, and it could only be so strong. with the added weight, the largest engine they will offer (the 5.7L) would lose some of its overall power pulling that extra weight. and with the last tundra, it was designed to reach its claimed peak hp and torque numbers only if they used the highest octane fuel where as the domestics were designed to meet them on 87 octane.  also from what i can gather, it will probably have a higher center of gravity which as u know will handicap it in the handling dept. and i'm sure Nissan tried to address these problems when they conceived of the titan, but have barely made a dent in the pickup market. i think what im going to have to do is tie them together at their rears, each pointing away from eachother, hit the gas and see which one gets pulled.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFhGRe9CLsE 

Detriot needs to do a few things, first they need to reinvent themselves because they are not in tune with the marke. Next they to get their costs under control because you can build a good truck that 70% of it is labor cost and cut corners on quality and sell it for a high price and not expect your market shrink. I am not so much build up Toyota but they did not steal the market from Detriot, Detriot gacve it to them because they turned a blind eye and have for years depended on the "buy american" to keep them in bussiness, not quality and value. Toyota uses better quality parts and materials in their truck because they can afford to because their production costs for labor are a lot lower though their workers make a good wage still. They spend 15 to 20% more man hours assembling each vehicle than detriot does too with means they can take more time to do it right and maintain higher quality. When GM comes out with a new frame design for a truck it is because they have found a even cheaper way to do it because cost is a factor for them with such high labor costs (Ford too). You meantion that a toyota rear end looks smaller but they use much better metal and even off road Toyota axles and frames take a beating without failure and have for years and old one usually rust away after many many years of service and 100's of thousands of miles too with frames and drivelines still intact. Toyota has had 4 valve overhead cam engine for many years and detroit still does not have a main stream 24 valve V6 or 32 valve V8 (Toyota does not even sell a vehile here that does not have 4 valve per cyclinder and it has been the way for years. 4 valve engines are more complex to build but make a lot more power too, detriot is largely stuck on 2 valve design that cost less to design and build. If Toyota made a motor the size of a GM 8.1 it would likely have 500 to 600 HP in every day form, not a mere 300. You must remember that in Japan, fuel has always been expensive so they learned long ago how to make a vehicle as efficent as possible and they are learning about big truck market. I wish that GM would change course on their truck designs and make them more truck like but they have spent billions and trying to replace car with them because they have lower saftey standards and are more profitable and did not have any foriegn competetion. My 2000 K3500 is the old style not a Silverado and it was the last truck that had a real front bumper. Silverados have a lot less metal up their and what there is is a lot thinner too. The new 07 has even less metal in bumper still and a impact with a heavy carboard box on the road could damage it or rip it off the truck and a minor impact that should do not damage at all can cost 100's or even 1000's to fix now. I am sorry but I am old fashion, a truck should be a truck and have a real bumper not plastic window dressing and nothing more. Also how about if you need to use tire chains on your SUV? (mandatory is some road in west in winter) No room for them on most SUV's (and no room for snow and ice build up either)

yeah cant disagree with that. hopfully they get the message and make the changes they need to make before its too late.  

The 2008's aren't getting the 6 speed, just the 2500hd 6.0 and while shopping for a new 08 2500hd I had two dealers and my son who is usually quite knowlegable about such things tell me that the only gear ratio available for the 6 speed was 3.73. From what I gathered is that is true, unless you check the off road package which allows for the choice of 4.10 gears as a 100.00 upgrade. (It has to be an upgrade otherwise it wouldn't cost 100.00 bucks!) So I have a Z-71 coming so I can let you know haow the new 6 speed tranny works out. This should have alot more grunt than my 2006 5.3 with 3.73 gears. It could have benefitted from 4.10 gears, however the 3.73's were much better than the 3.42 they seem to have on all the lots. I get around 16-17mpg in the city and 20-22 on the hwy. I know I won't see this with my new truck!  

Not sure where you are getting this Z71 option for a 2500. Plus online if you build a 2500 you can just order it with a 4.10 with no other add ons to get it. (they did double the option price from 50 to 100 bucks) I did a extended test drive of a 08 2500 std cab with a plow prep package and 3.73 gears and it was not good. Tranny hunts around a lot in town and races engine in gears even at part throttle and downshift requires it to step through gears too. Generally it is pretty clunky. On the road it was a big slug in top OD gear. My wifes 2000 Cherokee with a 4cyl and 5 speed would walk away from in on highway with them both in top gear and it is not "fast" either. (the 2500 with 3.73's and 6 speed auto is just that slow in top gear) You will regret getting it with a 3.73 big time. (4.10 should really be standard with a 4.56 option) Also engine is torque limited in all of first gear by ECM and it does not allow full power until it is in second for a bit and since it is drive by wire it is easy for ECM to do this. That tranny is one of those things that looks good on paper but lacks in usage. Also GM unwisely moved ABS controller from its protected area under hood to under truck down in the spray, mud, stones and snow/salt. (very bad move) I have bought GM trucks all my life (been buying them for over 35 years now) but I am done with them if this is the new truck to stay. It smells and looks of cheap construction (like a kids cheap toy truck) and new bed design and wheel wells creates many new seams to rust out early and spread cancer through body. Then there is the plastic bumpers (those massive looking bumper wings are plastic). One more thing, on the standard cab my head hits the head liner with easy if seat in fully back and this was never even a remote issue with my old style 2000 K3500 or even Silverados. (Ford and Dodge do not have head room issue either only "new" and "improved" GM truck) If I were to buy a truck today it would be between a Ford, Dodge and Toyota now. BTW, I drove a 08 std cab basic F250 last month with a 5.4 and new 5 speed automatic. That tranny works like a dream compared to new GM 6 speed and is well matched ratio wise and does not hunt around much. It is also NOT torque limited in any gear so there is no surges in engine power as you control it fully not ECM and it even has a real metal bumper still too. The Ford is likely the truckiest truck still made today from what I have seen so far. It has a nice simple clean sturdy basic design that I can appreciate when looking for a real work truck.